Financial self-defense school, now in session: Make your own luck.

Dan-Track: Michael Flor is the luckiest guy you’re ever gonna meet. He’s a guy who checked into a hospital with COVID-19, spent five weeks in a coma, and recovered.

Those first five weeks, he doesn’t remember. Just someone shoving a Q-tip up his nose for a COVID test, and then he wakes up.

Michael Flor: [00:00:22] My doctor introduced herself and basically said, you know, I saved your life. And I told my ICU staff not to fuck it up.

Dan-Track: [00:00:34] The doctor said every major organ in his body had failed. That Michael basically had no right to be alive.

Michael Flor: [00:00:42] I didn’t believe her. Um, so I didn’t feel like my life was ever in danger.

Dan-Track: [00:00:46] I mean, he felt weak, but… He wondered for a minute if he was being pranked.

He says hearing the raw emotion in his wife’s voice really brought him around. At one point, they had phoned her to say goodbye to him— no visitors allowed in the COVID ICU.

The next few weeks, before he left the hospital, were no picnic. His kidneys had failed, and he was on dialysis, which sounded like a very unpleasant life sentence. He wanted to travel, do all kinds of things. He thought for a minute about ending his life. He says the nurses helped him get perspective.

Michael Flor: [00:01:28] Respecting everything that my wife and my kids, what they had gone through.

Dan-Track: [00:01:35] Not to mention the tens of thousands of people who had already died from COVID

Michael Flor: [00:01:41] all would’ve been chicken.

Dan: [00:01:45] Yeah. when did you get off dialysis?

Michael Flor: [00:01:49] about a month ago.

Dan: [00:01:51] Wow.

Michael Flor: [00:01:53] Yeah, my doctor and I cried.

He said, you know, I don’t feel a lot of people doesn’t happen to a lot of people. And so, um, yeah, I’m so blessed, so lucky.

little miracle and how to describe it. So he felt so thankful.

Dan: [00:02:11] you’re like a one in a million.

Michael Flor: [00:02:14] Yeah, 1.5 million bill…

Dan: [00:02:18] Yeah. That’s the turn, right?

Dan-Track: [00:02:23] Yeah, that might have been a little hard to hear— here’s the gag, the turn. He’s saying “One in a million? Yeah, one point five million in medical bills.”

Because of course. A few weeks after he left the hospital, he started getting bills— well, statements. Charges. Starting with one for his hospital stay: One million, one hundred twenty-two thousand, five hundred and one dollars— and four cents.

Michael Flor: [00:02:39] I was like, Oh my God. You know, it was daunting to see something like that. And, you know, with your name on it, like, Oh,

Dan-Track: [00:02:47] It’s a hundred and eighty-one pages long. Basically three pages for every day he was in the hospital. Five weeks in an ICU bed at 97 hundred dollars a day— then 54 hundred a day for a non-ICU bed for the next few weeks. Dialysis, 4700 per. Ventilator, 28 hundred per day. Multiple charges a day for “HC Meter Dose Inhaler” and “HC Nebulizer Small Volume” — 982 dollars per.

It adds up.

Michael Flor: [00:03:16] And it was just the hospitalization cost. Um, I separate one for the doctors and

Dan-Track: [00:03:25] … and bills from the nursing home where he did rehab, a lot of in-home physical therapy since he came home, a bunch of outpatient dialysis. A surgery or two.

That gets you to the 1.5 million. [Actually, that was an estimate from him. Later he looked it up. Little less than a million three.] But it was that first million-dollar bill got him written up in the Seattle Times— that’s how I ended up learning his story.

And so far, his luck is holding. His insurance seems to be covering everything. And his policy includes a cap on what he has to pay in a given year.

Dan-Track: [00:04:29] So far, he says it looks like he’ll be paying about five thousand bucks. Which he can handle— and which seems to him like a bargain.

He can’t believe how lucky he is. He lived. He’s off dialysis. He’s taking hikes. His bills are… manageable.

And of course: This is the thing. To survive a big medical ordeal— AND to survive it financially— that’s like hitting the jackpot twice.

This is An Arm and a Leg— a podcast about the cost of health care. I’m Dan Weissmann.

You get sick in America— and you know, we’re in a pandemic, so that’s a thing that happens— and it’s like you’ve entered a casino, and you’re gambling with your financial life.

And for this episode, we hear from a journalist who got someone whose job it is to stack the deck against us to be pretty honest— on tape— about how they do it.

I think that is worth knowing.

Celia L-J: My name is Celia Llopis-Jepson, and I’m a public radio reporter for the Kansas news service.

And around new years, Celia did a story about someone who got stuck with a $900 ambulance bill. The ambulance company didn’t take their insurance.

And the next day, Celia got an email from Diane Letner.

Celia L-J: [00:05:59] Her email says, miss Llopis-Jepson. I came across your article on Facebook about surprise medical bills.

Dan-Track: [00:06:05] And Diane is basically like, Um, 900 bucks? I can top that. And: Um, can you help?

Diane’s husband Al had wiped out on a motorcycle over the summer, broke his neck. A helicopter took him to the nearest hospital— what you call an air ambulance. And then the bill came, from a company called Air Methods:

Celia L-J: [00:06:28] for $48,934 and 27 cents. Our insurance company has said they’ll pay $7,068 and 92 cents. That’s it. The air methods folks tell us, we must pay the remaining $41,865 and 35 cents. This $42,000 hanging over our heads is likely to put us under financially. We’re considering hiring a lawyer, but we could end up spending thousands and still have to pay the air ambulance company.

I don’t know what the answer is. But I think we Kansans deserve better. Sincerely, Diane Lettner

Dan-Track: [00:07:14] Celia was like: I am calling this lady, for sure. And she did. And Celia did a heck of a story about it. And when she pitched it to NPR as a national story, they were like, nah.

Celia L-J: [00:07:29] I think they just see like, Oh, it’s another air ambulance story. People know by now that our ambulances are expensive

Dan-Track: [00:07:34] Because to people in the news business, the outline of Al Lettner’s story — the issues in it— are old news, even though the story and those issues are freaking shocking and outrageous.

So, for those of us who DON’T eat this stuff for breakfast, here’s the deal with those issues:

To start with, this 49 thousand dollar bill is what nerds like me and Celia call a Surprise out-of-network bill.

Celia L-J: [00:08:02] this is an out of network situation, right? I mean, you’ve had to explain surprise bills, 10 million times.

Dan-Track: [00:08:08] Eh, maybe two million. Real quick: If you have health insurance, the insurance company tells you who takes that insurance— who is “in network.” You see somebody in-network, you pay something— a deductible, a co-pay, whatever— and your insurance pays the rest, and that’s the end.

You see someone “out of network,” then… your insurance pays what THEY pay, and they say Look, the rest is up to you.

Which is one thing if you chose to see someone who doesn’t take your insurance.

BUT guess what happens, a lot? You go to a hospital that’s “in-network,” but SURPRISE! Somebody involved in your treatment was OUT of network. You get a big bill. A surprise bill.

And there’s a whole world of providers who seem to make a whole BUSINESS MODEL of being “out of network.” Because then they can charge whatever they want, and chase YOU for whatever your insurance doesn’t pay.

A lot of times, these are providers where you don’t actually CHOOSE them: Like the doc in an emergency room. Or maybe the anesthesiologist who works on your surgery.

And Air Ambulance companies are a big area for this kind of thing. And some people have noticed. NPR has done stories.

Audie Cornish: [00:09:29] I’m Audie Cornish

Mary-Louise Kelly: [00:09:30] and I’m married Louise Kelly with the latest installment in our medical bill of the month series dozen listeners sent in bills for their air ambulance rides.

Dan-Track: [00:09:39] The New York Times. Network news. The federal GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILTY OFFICE did a whole report for Congress on Air Ambulances three years ago.

Among other things, they noticed that Air Methods— the company that was billing Al Letner 49 grand? — over a ten year period, Air Methods had almost quadrupled its average charge. From 13 thousand dollars to 49 thousand 800 bucks.

Celia’s story got into all of that. And into another issue which we have touched on in this show— and which is super freaking crazy, and very much worth talking about:

Are bills like this one from Air Methods even legally enforceable? Like, can they freaking DO that? Just bill you WHATEVER they want?

One thing providers do— Air Methods did with Al— is to hand you a piece of paper to sign that says a bunch of things, including:

Number one, yes, you can give me medical treatment. OK.

Number two, yes, I’ll give you my insurance information and you can bill them. Fine…

Number three: If my insurance doesn’t pay your full charges, I’ll pay whatever they don’t. WHAT?

Like, say my insurance offers you seven grand and you decide you want … 49? 80? Any number you choose? I’m promising to pay the difference? Is that what that part means?

There are legal scholars who say, “That’s not enforceable.” Like one, this is pretty much a your-money-or-your-life situation. And two, contracts can’t be quite THAT open-ended.

And in Al’s case, there’s another bit: He did sign a piece of paper like this— when he was basically unconscious. Like, his neck was broken. Medical notes that Celia got show that he was disoriented. And in a lot of pain. And was being pumped full of fentanyl. And was apparently already in the helicopter, in the sky, when he was given the paper to sign. Or actually, maybe they’d already landed. Here’s Celia, reading from the document with all its timestamps

Celia L-J: [00:11:47] 5:17 PM crew gives him another dose of fentanyl for pain. 5:21 PM. Helicopter lands at the hospital. 5:25 PM. Is the timestamp on all appropriate paperwork signed.

Dan-Track: [00:12:00] HUH. So, you can see there could be some legal … questions. We’ve talked on this show about how, if we’re talking about a few hundred bucks— maybe a few thousand— you could take on a legal fight in small claims court and even win.

But with 49 grand in play? You need a lawyer, and you’ve gotta pay that person, and who knows how it’s going to come out?

So… all that is pretty rich material. But if that’s all Celia Llopis-Jepsen had, I probably wouldn’t have called her up. No, her story had this whole OTHER layer. Where she got a guy from Air Methods to talk about the game his company was REALLY playing with the Letners. And that’s right after this.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is a co-production with Kaiser Health News. That’s a non-profit news service covering health care in a America. Kaiser Health news is not affiliated with the big health care outfit Kaiser Permanente. We’ll have a little more information about Kaiser Health News at the end of this episode.

So, here’s what Celia Llopis-Jepsen got. And she got it by just doing what a good reporter is supposed to do: You’ve got a story that makes somebody— or some company — sound like a villain? You CALL THEM UP.

It’s only fair. They deserve a chance to tell what the story looks like from their side. And who knows? They may have a good case to make.

So, here’s the Letner’s story— where Air Methods definitely sounds kind of like a bad guy. Celia calls and gets to talk with Chris Myers. He’s Vice-President of reimbursement— the guy in charge of getting them paid.

And right off, he says: Oh, no WAY were we ever going to actually try to get 42 thousand bucks out of Al Letner. That’s just not the kind of thing we would do.

Chris Myers Air Methods: [00:14:08] the idea of trying to collect tens of thousands of dollars from individuals. Is really stupid because they don’t have the money to pay it. Yes.

Dan-Track: [00:14:19] And Celia’s like, “HUH, that’s funny. Because they’ve got these bills saying that they owe you tens of thousands of dollars.

Actually, way before that, there was this whole packet you sent them, including a place for them to sign, saying they’d be responsible for whatever part of your bill their insurance didn’t cover. Here’s Diane Letner reading part of that to Celia.

Diane Letner: [00:14:44] you get down to the last page and it says. This is your financial responsibility .. . I also agree to allow provider to get a credit report to help collect unpaid balances.

Dan-Track: [00:14:57] And you know, funny thing about that packet— with all the fine print, it didn’t say what they’d be on the hook for.

Celia asks Chris Myers about that little omission. He’s like, oh, yeah— well, we don’t want to stress them out with that kind of thing right at the start.

Chris Myers Air Methods: [00:15:18] we don’t want patients to be alarmed about the total amount until we have been able to work with our insurance company and understand what may be left for us to have to work on.

Dan-Track: [00:15:32] I mean, he must really be looking out for their emotional well-being here. How sweet.

And then he says, look: We call patients all the time— we definitely tried calling the Letners— to explain how, for real, we’re NOT gonna come after them for these giant amounts. We just need them to go to bat for us with their insurance.

By the way, Celia asked the Letners: Did Air Methods say this to you on the phone? How they didn’t really expect you to pay these wild sums? Diane was pretty clear: Nope.

And Diane told Celia: If they HAD said something like that, we would’ve been like, Great. Put. It. In. Writing.

Because Celia says, the Letners were pretty freaked out. I mean, by the time the Letners get in touch with her, they have a BILL in writing.

Celia L-J: [00:16:28] this is that form that says like, Hey.

Here’s the sum it’s nearly $50,000. Would you like to pay by check or MasterCard or a visa or, you know,

Dan-Track: [00:16:38] . So the Letners have THAT in writing. You can actually see it in Celia’s online writeup of their story And they have reason to think it’s serious.

Celia L-J: [00:16:49] they knew a professor at their local university. who had been sued over an air ambulance bill. um, so, you know, they knew that and, and you remember that ProPublica piece about Coffeyville Kansas and throwing people in jail over debt

Dan: [00:17:06] Yeah, that was in Kansas,

Dan-Track: [00:17:08] AND there’s this other thing they noticed. Last fall, the nonprofit newsroom ProPublica did a huge piece about people being ARRESTED over unpaid medical bills. One person owed like 28 bucks. And all of that was happening in Coffeyville. KANSAS.

Celia L-J: [00:17:23] Coffeyville is really close by. So that made a lot of news down in their neck of the woods. So they’re reading all about people being like thrown in jail and stuff over bills and hearing about people getting ensued, like they’re quaking in their shoes, you know?

Dan-Track: [00:17:37] Maybe they wouldn’t go to jail, but getting sued? I mean, there were actually news stories a few years ago about Air Methods filing lawsuits against patients. Celia checked with Chris Myers: You guys do that?

Chris Myers Air Methods: [00:17:52] Now, historically air methods may have done that We certainly do not do it today.

Dan-Track: [00:17:58] Air Methods told Celia: Look, we don’t even send people to collections much anymore.

Celia L-J: [00:18:03] they told me like, we’re only gonna send someone to collections. If they’re not responsive at all to their bills, they’re not cooperating with us

Dan-Track: [00:18:10] Like, if it looked like a patient had kept an insurance check and didn’t send the money over to Air Methods.

Celia L-J: [00:18:18] you know, that type of scenario, they’re saying, look, when patients do cooperate with us, then we get that check from blue cross or whatever, and we let them be, and the letters are saying what the, what? No, no one told like, where does it say that anywhere in writing, you know?

Dan-Track: [00:18:37] So Celia asked Chris Myers that. Where are the Letners supposed to get that in writing. And here’s where he said the quiet part out loud. He said:

Chris Myers Air Methods: [00:18:48] And we don’t put that in writing because if we did that, then no, no out-of-network payer, would ever, pay us anything, they would just pay a zero.

Dan-Track: [00:18:59] HUH. So, let’s discuss that for a minute, OK?

First, I’m guessing he doesn’t mean they’d actually pay zero. He just means zero beyond whatever insurance company pays in-network providers. In this case, that’s 7 thousand 68 dollars and 27 cents. Zero on top of that.

I wrote to Air Methods to check. They said, yeah, not literally zero. We’d be at the mercy of the big, bad insurance companies. Gosh we hate it when patients get stuck in the middle. We’d like to be in-network with everybody. We’re working on it.

Could be. But that doesn’t explain why in the meantime they’re putting in writing that Al Letner owes them more than 40 thousand bucks, but NOT saying, in writing “JK.” .

What I think Chris Myers is REALLY saying is: If we put it in writing— that we wouldn’t come after Al Letner for 42 grand— then we couldn’t get Al Letner to do EVERYTHING HE COULD THINK OF to get his insurance company to pay us more.

I mean here’s Al Letner, talking to Celia.

Al Letner: [00:20:05] And the stress on you when you are being phoned and when you’re receiving bills and you’re not sleeping and you wake up in the middle of the night, thinking about this,

Dan-Track: [00:20:17] He sounds … pretty MOTIVATED to get this resolved. But Chris Myers is saying, we can’t put this 70-year-old guy’s mind at ease. That would be giving the game away..

And this is where we get back to Michael Flor, the luckiest man alive. The guy who spent five weeks in a coma, on a ventilator, with COVID-19, and lost kidney function— and who got his kidney function BACK, and went on a camping trip, and whose medical bills are NOT keeping him up at night. The guy who hit the jackpot twice.

That idea— the idea that NOT ending up with a giant bill that keeps you up at night amounts to hitting the jackpot— this connects to a metaphor I mentioned earlier. I’ve been thinking about it for a long time.

If we get sick, or we need medical attention— it’s like we’re entering a casino. And this is an especially lousy casino because nobody ever comes here and wins. It’s just a question of how much we’ll lose. Is it gonna be an amount we can manage? Or a whole lot more.

And in a regular casino, of course the odds always favor the house, but you do have choices. Of course one is, you have the choice whether to go to the casino or not.

But another is: A regular casino, you can go to a casino and just DO WHATEVER. Play this slot machine. Put a bunch of chips on Roulette. Play some card game you’re maybe a LITTLE fuzzy on — does three of a kind beat two pair or what?

OR you could be the kind of person who studies up: Learn the rules and the odds of a game like blackjack or poker. Learn to count cards. I mean, there are even people who DO win money in regular casinos this way.

But in THIS casino, it’s not like that. In this casino, you walk in, and you get taken directly to the table where the World Series of Poker is played. And actually, they’re playing a really complicated variant on Texas Hold ‘Em with a LOT of weird rules. Which change all the time.

And the other players at this table— the high rollers— the pharma companies, the hospital chains, the air ambulance companies— they know ALL the rules. I mean, they’ve got people lobbying the committees who MAKE the rules.

Or they’re ON those committees. Like, Congress created a special committee to advise them on how to regulate the price of air ambulances better. Guess who got appointed to that committee last year? Chris Myers from Air Methods.

So, these high rollers, they know all the rules. They’re good buddies with the dealer. They’ve each got a whole team coaching them on every round of betting.

And they are playing against EACH OTHER. Your pile of chips is just one thing they’re fighting over — and they are MORE THAN HAPPY to take whatever chips you’ve got.

And what Chris Myers from Air Methods is saying, when he’s like “We’d never put IN WRITING that we’re not actually coming after Al Letner’s house”— what he’s saying is “We’re not putting it in writing because that would be showing our cards.” And if he shows his cards to Al Letner, then he’s showing them to the insurance company too.

THAT’s what we’re up against here. And that’s why I’m making this show. We need to learn everything we can about this casino. Everything we can about the rules, about these other players, and about every little trick we can find that’ll give us SOME little bit of leverage. Some understanding of what we’re up against.

Look, just as an aside: I realize at this moment, I’ve given myself a couple of metaphors to awkwardly knit together.

Because one thing I’ve said a LOT on this show recently is: Our job here is to engage in financial self-defense. We profiled a medical-bill ninja last year, and now our project is to build a dojo. So, for now, take your pick: Dojo/casino.

Or just imagine that we’re in one of those James Bond movies that takes place in a casino, and we’ll work out the details later. [SNIPPET OF BOND THEME MUSIC, MAYBE SOME PUNCHING SOUNDS]

So, now that we’re in the mood to kick a little ass, let’s take note of the lessonsCelia Llopis-Jepsen— and the Letners— are here to teach us.

Number one: Read the fine print. And don’t sign anything you don’t have to.

Two— and this is related: Don’t take anything these jokers tell you at face value. Like that bill Al and Diane got, saying they owed 49 thousand and change, and would they like to pay by check or credit card? They were like, uh-uh.

Three: You may have rights. Expect it to be a SIGNIFICANT project to get them. But if there’s a boatload of money involved… I mean, wouldn’t YOU take on a project for 40 grand?

Diane and Al hired a lawyer, and in an email Diane says the lawyer is handling things now. But she says the case isn’t closed, and it’s just over a year since Al took that helicopter ride, and of course they are paying the lawyer.

Plus, Celia tells me: Just finding the lawyer was a whole project for Al and Diane.

Celia L-J: [00:25:31] They spent weeks just trying to, you know, ask people for referrals called the Kansas bar association, try to find the right type of lawyer and the right type of lawyer who had time for them.

Dan-Track: [00:25:44] Ugh. This is not a project that really everybody can take on. We’re gonna need to learn a LOT more to start solving for that. Believe me, we will be coming back to this in future episodes.

Meanwhile, here’s a BIG tip that Celia found— and it’s ESPECIALLY relevant if you or somebody you know has a bill for anything related to COVID-19. This is actually huge:

Remember how in March, Congress passed some big economic-stimulus laws to help during the shutdown? One was the CARES Act, which included a hundred and seventy-five BILLION dollars for hospitals and health care providers.

And there were actually strings attached. Here’s the important one for us: Any provider that took some of that CARES Act money? They had to promise NOT to hit anyone with a surprise bill for COVID-related services.

That came up in Celia’s NEXT story. A guy named Amil Gharmalkar heard her story about the Letners and got in touch.

He’d gotten so sick with COVID that the rural hospital treating him had Air Methods fly him to a bigger hospital. Later, Air Methods sent a bill for 80 thousand bucks.

Celia figured out that Air Methods had gotten some of that CARES act money. Once Amil’s insurance paid Air Methods, they COULDN’T come after him for more.

Of course, they didn’t TELL Amil that. Celia did. And when she did, Amil and his family were shocked.

Celia L-J: [00:27:08] it was kind of one of those double-take moments where they were like, wait, what?

No one. No one. In fact, I told them twice before it sank in. the second time I told them it kind of registered and they were like, what? because they say that no, no one made that clear to them.

Dan-Track: [00:27:25] You could say Air Methods kept it kind of quiet in general. Celia wondered: Did Air Methods say on like their WEBSITE that they weren’t coming after COVID-19 patients with surprise bills?

Celia L-J: [00:27:38] I did ask them, could you tell me where, where you know where this is? Like? So I could like link to my story in my story, you know, where are you committing in publicly?

So air methods. Pointed us to a sentence at the bottom of a blog post on their website.

And they pointed me to the F the second to last paragraph. And this is what it says. we are also taking every measure to protect the financial wellbeing of patients affected by COVID-19…

Dan-Track: [00:28:10] Blah blah blah… It is hard to follow, and it does NOT say in plain English or otherwise: Once your insurance pays us what they’re gonna pay us, we’re done here.

Celia L-J: [00:28:23] I don’t really see exactly how a patient is supposed to figure it out.

Dan-Track: [00:28:27] Yeah, but now we’ve told you. If somebody’s billing you for COVID-19 treatment, and they’re out of network, and they’re coming after you for a whole lot of money… if they took that CARES Act money? THEY CAN’T.

And lucky for us, Celia found a searchable government database that has the whole list of entities that took that money. We’ll have a link to that on our website and wherever you’re listening to this.

Look, I’m not gonna pretend that any of this is easy, or that it’s anything but an uphill battle. And it shouldn’t be this hard.

I am going to keep finding more people who can teach us tricks— we will call them self-defense strategies— to make it just a LITTLE less hopeless.

And from here on out, I’ll be bringing this show to you every two weeks, instead of coming out with a “season” a couple of times a year.

If nothing else, the pandemic means we’re ALWAYS in season now.

We’re able to do this because you are supporting the show on Patreon. A bunch of you made pledges since our last episode in May. I’ll be thanking you by name at the end of this episode, and I’ve got a bunch of thank-you cards to write.

Thanks to you, the dojo is open, year-round. Starting now.

Our teacher for next time: Steve Benasso. I met Steve because he was telling a guy who sent a weird medical bill to get stuffed. And it worked.

Turns out, this was not Steve’s first time fighting a weird bill. He does it all the time. For his job. He’s an HR director.

Steve Benasso: [00:29:33] I have found. Horrible stories of people being missing, treated and lied to and, uh, and just. Errors of omission and negligence and ignorance. And I really hate to see that happen.

Dan-Track: [00:29:48] And he DOES something about it. He tells people where he works, if something in your medical bill, or your insurance statement seems weird? Bring it to me. And people do— and if he sees anything fishy, he goes to BATTLE.

Steve: I do it every month. I am a real bulldog on this stuff.

Next time on An Arm and a Leg: Learn how to fight like a bulldog. It’s gonna be pretty fun.

Till then, take care of yourself.

This episode was produced by me, Dan Weissmann and edited by Marian Wang— welcome aboard, Marian!

Daisy Rosario is our consulting managing producer, and Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard. Our music is by Dave Winer and Blue Dot Sessions.

This season of An Arm and a Leg is a co-production with Kaiser Health News— a non-profit news service about health care in America that’s an editorially-independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Kaiser Health News is NOT affiliated with Kaiser Permanente, the big health care provider— they share an ancestor. This guy Henry J. Kaiser— he had his hands in A LOT of different stuff. Concrete. Aluminum. Ship building. When he died, more than fifty years ago, he left half his money to the foundation that later created Kaiser Health News.

You can learn more about him and Kaiser Health News at armandalegshow.com/kaiser

Diane Webber is National Editor for Broadcast and Taunya English is Senior Editor for Broadcast Innovation at Kaiser Health News— they are editorial liaisons to this show.

Finally, thank you to some of our new backers on Patreon. Pledge two bucks a month or more, and you get a shout-out right here.

Thanks this week to folks who joined us for the first time— and some who increased their pledge.

Diane, Rachel Kitch,

Schlitzie

KayLo, Amy Gahran

Laurie Force, Leigh Watson, Jean Follett

Nettie Hines, Regina Rodriguez-Martin

Gary Kutac

Amy Zaccagnio

Katrina Weires, Abbey Bot, Linsday Cornwell

GK-man, Ernest Cantwell, Stephanie Toppin

Melanie Farnon

Elizabeth and Pat, Erin Mayo

Jim Van Nice, Peggy Whitmore

Mo D, Michael, Cara Fedick

Jennifer Lewis, Dacey Arashiba, and Josephine Elder