My Neighbor the Health Care Ninja

DAN: I am in Meredith Balogh’s kitchen, where she’s pulled up an old Facebook Messenger exchange on her phone

MEREDITH: Oh, here it is.

DAN: Awesome.

And I start reading it to myself.

MEREDITH: Hello Kelly. Hello. I’m working today, so I’m in and out. That’s okay.

It’s from a couple of years ago. Kelly is a mom who had been posting about her daughter in a group for Type 1 diabetics. The daughter was 12 and had just been diagnosed.

About 20 years ago, Meredith had been that kid. She went to a special camp for type one kids, and it it made a huge difference for her. Immediately, she had a plan for this family.

MEREDITH: I was like, AH! I will get you into a free camp. Like I just knew I could (Laughs)

So, she invited the mom into a private chat. I get Meredith to do the reading from here on in:

MEREDITH: (58:21) If I can find your contact for your daughter to camp for free, would you be interested? I can’t make promises, but I’ve a few connections I can try to pull. Let me know.

A few days and a bunch of messages later, Meredith has found camps near the Kelly’s home, with generous financial aid policies. She’s connected Kelley with the right people, and pushed her to turn in the paperwork. Kelley writes back:

MEREDITH: You are wonderful person. I couldn’t have done any of this without your help. You are angel from above. I get tired of digging for help.

Meredith writes back: It’s nice to let someone else do the digging for a minute.

DAN: And then there’s— what is this? Did you send this to her, or did she send it to you?

MEREDITH: She sent it to me. Says “Cheers!”

(laughter)

It worked. The girl went to camp. Meredith and Kelley are still in touch.

And this is the kind of thing Meredith does. She helps people — type 1 diabetics, co-workers, randos on Reddit— figure out how to navigate the cost of health care. Because any battle they’re up against, she’s been there.

This is “An Arm and a Leg,” a show about the cost of health care.

I first heard from Meredith about a year ago.

Last year, she caught our episode about Renaissance fair workers and the safety-net they’ve created for each other.

In the last few years, they’ve paid more than half a million dollars in medical bills for each other. But their secret weapon is a part-time advocate, who teaches people how to navigate the system. She’s helped them make more than $2 million in bills go away.

At the end of that episode, I said, “If you know someone like this — or if you are someone like this — please get in touch.”

The next day, I had an email from Meredith with the subject: “I am that person — like your Robin Hood.”

Below, it said, “I have gotten thousands of dollars in bills reduced /removed or just plain made disappear for myself and helped others. It’s a combination of extreme couponing, phone negotiations, letter writing, and bless it all- lots of paperwork and receipt keeping.”

I was like, oh yes please. And it turns out, we’re neighbors. Meredith lives about a mile from me.

Around Labor Day this year, I stopped by.

I met Meredith, and her husband Chris, and their three year old.

MEREDITH: This is Guthrie.

DAN: Oh my goodness. Hi. Hi Guthrie. Named after woody?

MEREDITH: Yeah,

DAN: right on. Hey Guthrie. Good to meet you.

MEREDITH: Guthrie wanna show him your house?

GUTHRIE: MY HOUSE!

DAN: Your house. Wow. It’s beautiful here.

And we sat in her back yard for a couple of hours, and she told me her story.

And then we met three more times— in my little back-porch studio, in her kitchen.

Because it turns out: The story of how you become a health-care ninja, a Robin Hood, it’s complicated. And it’s not all roses. Even today, being a ninja— it’s a lot of work. A lot of time, a lot of feelings, all of it.

The first time we meet, one story stands out. It’s the moment when she first emerges as a fully-fledged ninja.

In this story, Meredith is in her mid-20s, and she’s just moved to a new place. She’s got no insurance, and isn’t making a lot of money.

And she’s a type one diabetic, so she needs to be seen all the time. And she needs an endocrinologist to sign paperwork so she can get discounted insulin. So…

Meredith: I just started making phone calls and I found a guy and I was like, Hey, would you be interested in taking on a negotiation to have a patient? I will. You know how, how much you want

DAN: ME PATIENT, YOU DOCTOR, how much you want?

MEREDITH: Exactly. Yeah. That’s exactly how this happened. And so we came to terms on a, and he would see me an unlimited amount of times. I just had to pay him four times a year.

DAN: And then, and did you, when you made the deal on the phone…

MEREDITH: Yeah, I was pleasant. I like went in in person and finished this negotiation there.

Finished the negotiation. Like a business deal.

Like she was, in her mid-20s, approaching this whole deal with a kind of detachment, a kind of confidence that, you know, for me at age 51 is difficult to attain in dealing with — especially the financial side of the medical system.

And in doing this show, I’ve talked with lots of people who deal with it. Not a whole lot of them have this kind of confidence. Like, who does that?

Meredith Balogh does it. Here’s how she got there:

First, her parents were in the business—- dad’s a doctor, mom’s a nurse. So the whole territory, including the back end, is kind of familiar.

And one thing she knows from seeing how her dad operates is:

MEREDITH : I knew that people gave care— because they cared. because I knew from my dad because yeah, he gave a lot of free or stupendously discounted service.

So, as a kid she doesn’t know how important this will be later, but she’s already soaking up a lesson that most people don’t get at home. Doctors are people, who want to help.

Then comes the tougher stuff. On her 12th birthday, she’s diagnosed with type one diabetes. She spends a week in the hospital and it’s basically boot camp:

MEREDITH: it’s like this is your regimen, this is your new life, right. Here’s your training book, here’s how crazy this is going to be.

This is 20 years ago. These days, if you’re diagnosed type one diabetes, you’ll probably get a continuous glucose monitor and an insulin pump and one of the newer, long-acting insulins— the super-expensive kinds.

But 20 years ago this stuff really was not around so much. In the old way of doing things, you stuck yourself with a needle, multiple times a day.

Every day is a series of incredibly rigorous calculations.

MEREDITH: You have to time your food, you have to time your meals,

Calories taken in, units of insulin injected and minutes on the clock.

She spends a week in the hospital learning this, and then she’s got to live it. Every day. Her mom helps. Mom’s a nurse. But still.

This is a kind of second lesson: Being healthy— just staying alive— requires work. Requires vigilance. Every day, all day.

Then, there’s another one: Your life does not have to stay on any sort of standard path.

MEREDITH: I was held back that year cause I missed so much school.

DAN: sure. Yeah.

MEREDITH: And I dropped out after seventh grade.

DAN: After seventh grade?

MEREDITH: Yes.

DAN: Dude. Bold. Early. Wow.

MEREDITH: My mom was, she was the trailblazer there. She’s like we’ll just homeschool ya

But this wasn’t about diabetes, not mostly. Meredith was managing the injections and stuff, but she was dyslexic — couldn’t read out loud, as a seventh-grader — and the school wasn’t offering services to really help with that. This was rural Ohio, twenty years ago.

Her mom was sending a message.

MEREDITH: like literally with my mom saying, well this is okay. That’s, you know, your life isn’t going to look like other people’s

And Meredith says her mom was living out that message herself.

MEREDITH: She was not a popular person for pulling us out of school. That was— in our small town — a big “What? You’re doing. What?”

Meredith got on-track academically, but she didn’t head back to regular school. Instead…

MEREDITH: got my GED, like as soon as I turned 16 and started going to college. I needed a schedule that fit my diabetic schedule, not the daily schedule of high school.

It’s not just the schedule either. There’s also all the fitting-in, dealing with the society of adolescents…

MEREDITH: I was having nothing to do with it.

DAN: Right, right, right. You didn’t have, you literally didn’t have time for that.

MEREDITH: I just didn’t.

So there: Lesson fully learned. Your life doesn’t have to look like other people’s.

Meanwhile, her mom has another lesson for her. Dealing with bureaucracy.

Every few months there’s a phone call that has to happen with the insurance company to certify that Meredith is following all her protocols: Injecting when she’s supposed to, checking her levels, tracking everything she eats.

When Meredith’s about 14, her mom tells her, making that phone call is going to be your job. Her mom’s like:

MEREDITH: That was part of the deal. I’m not going to be an interpreter on this. You got to go in there and start, you know, you got to take the call. You got to tell them I’ll do the thing that you’re telling me to do.

Many years later, when Meredith is facebook-chatting with Kelley— the mom with the newly-diagnosed 12 year-old — Meredith is like, definitely, in a couple of years, have your daughter start talking with the insurance company for herself:

Meredith: I’m viscous with mine and rarely have problems because my mom slowly at 14 started giving me more of the negotiation responsibilities

Of course, teenage Meredith didn’t know she was building a set of long-term ninja skills. She was just scrambling as best she could.

And the scrambling kept getting more intense.

Around the time she started college, she found out she had a rare heart condition, and she needed surgery.

MEREDITH:my parents didn’t know if I was actually going to survive. Like all these things on top of each other, it’s like I was really sick.

She went to school in state, and she says she shortened her horizons. And I mean, the immediate horizon was a LOT to deal with.

MEREDITH: I really didn’t have the brain power to do things that I really probably could have ended up doing.

She majored in art. Partly because she loved it. But also because it was just about the only thing she knew she could do. The dyslexia wasn’t gone, there were other learning differences.

MEREDITH: Reading was still really hard. Writing was still really hard. Um, doing math was impossible.

And getting through the art degree took everything she had.

MEREDITH: I would go to bed at eight 30 every night, and I really didn’t have a social life. I was really, really, really tired.

In other words, she knows an art degree is not exactly a ticket to any particular career.

But it’s a college degree.

And she wants a degree as soon as she can get one.

MEREDITH: I had to get out of southern Ohio. Yeah. It was like a 70-mile Car Ride to the doctor’s office. Like to get to like a specialist

She graduates with the art degree, moves to Columbus, Ohio— and takes a job at a nursing home. It’s not her dream job. But there’s health insurance.

MEREDITH: I had a bachelor’s degree, so when it was 2009 and the economy had collapsed and I needed insulin.

Meredith talks about this period as being about short-term thinking, limited thinking. Other kids got to choose a major, choose a career, balance priorities. She only got to have one priority: Survival.

Maybe this is a ninja lesson too: Accepting limits. Crummy limits. Limits not everybody has to accept. And maybe short-term thinking, survival thinking — this is maybe a ninja characteristic too.

Or maybe it’s just a raw deal. Not everything has a silver lining.

But after college, before Meredith settled into the nursing home gig, she and her boyfriend — the same guy she’s now married to — they did this one thing that was really kind of rash. Or, at least, it was not all about immediate-term survival.

He made the same calculation a lot of new college grads made right then: It seemed like a good time for Grad school. Wait out the recession, come out of it with a new credential.

And they really wanted to SEE the places he’s applying to, check them out. So they hit the road.

Speaker 15: We lived in my car for three months and we visited universities — going all across the US eating ramen noodles.

And she had this other thing besides the ramen noodles: the way some people sock away money when they’re going to quit a job in a few months. Or keep a “go” bag under the bed in case of an earthquake. She had been socking away insulin. Her doomsday kit.

So she grabbed her go bag full of insulin and ramen noodles. They drove across the country visiting graduate programs

Meredith: It was like, okay, well I can do anything. I’m just going to go on this adventure. We did.

But then there’s an emergency. A health emergency.

Yeah, more on that, right after this.

This season of An Arm and a Leg is a co-production of Public Road Productions and Kaiser Health News, a non-profit newsroom that covers health care in America. Kaiser Health News is NOT affiliated with the giant health care provider Kaiser Permanente. We’ll have a little more on Kaiser Health News at the end of this episode.

So, Meredith and Chris are on their big road trip, and suddenly there’s a health emergency.

But it’s not hers. In Yosemite, Chris falls and breaks his hand in three places.

MEREDITH: and I’m like, oh my God, we don’t have insurance. Yeah, you need surgery. Yeah, you have this terribly broken hand. And then I started calling doctors. This is like my very first time like negotiating. I didn’t even know how much like places would cover. All I knew is I need to find a guy, and I wasn’t going to have the surgery done in California. Cause I didn’t know anything about California. I didn’t know if I could negotiate with someone there.

But in Ohio, her little town, she’s got all kinds of connections. Remember, her dad’s a doc. She works his connections, gets commitments from people— a surgeon, a team. Everybody but the anesthesiologist.

Meredith: I, we drove cross the country with his hands like broken in absolute pain. and I just drove right through because cause I knew I had to get there cause I didn’t want to have to have a second hand re broken.

So they get there. But there’s there’s something she hasn’t thought of.

Meredith: He’s in there and then I’m like, okay, but I don’t know I’m gonna pay for an operating Room.

She doesn’t have any insurance, any money, any job, any anything. Just a go bag with some insulin and some ramen noodles.

And the hospital is like, well, here actually, here’s a financial aid application.

MEREDITH: I was like, Oh yes, You have created a monster. Wow.

DAN: So you had you, it was like they gave you your first taste.

MEREDITH: Yeah

Maybe they created a monster. But I’d say they completed her ninja training. With this last — this crucial — bit of knowledge. You don’t have to personally know somebody. There’s a place to go.

MEREDITH: it was just a sweet little room just right by the front door. Which was so funny cause that was the same hospital I volunteered at as a kid. It was just right across the hall.

She and Chris head back to Columbus. He’s not gonna start art school till his hand can heal up. She takes the job at the nursing home, gets insurance, keeps honing her ninja skills.

A few years later, when Chris does go to grad school, she follows him to Illinois— even though his school is in a small town. There’s no guarantee of a job with insurance, and she doesn’t get one for a while.

But she’s ready.

She’s got her ninja chops together. She works the phones and finds herself that endocrinologist, and does her negotiating, and gets him to see her for cheap, and to sign the forms so she can get coupons for cheap insulin.

The job she does get— a temp position as a clerk at the town hall— gives her bonus ninja tools: Mad paperwork skills. A better understanding of the person answering the phone when she calls this bureaucracy or that one.

Because now, she’s been that person.

MEREDITH: I became one of those people who was the form keeper. Like I’m the checkbox keeper. Have you done a, B, c, D

So here’s how she ends up putting it— the ninja’s perspective:

MEREDITH: There’s only three things that you’re fighting: problems with competence, problems with greed and problems with maliciousness. And luckily most things are incompetence.

Like, yes: There is a process for asking, but the but the probability of something going wrong on the other side — of them losing the form, even though you filed it, say — is enormous.

And so if you are calm and persistent and organized, you can take on 100% of the burden of competence in that.

MEREDITH: We just, you know, we just talked like a month ago on this date. You know, you have that there. Oh Wow. Yeah. I do have that on my call log. Can you bring it back like that? Oh yeah, sure. Cause you’ve been so nice and patient and you’re not mad at the person who’s just there ticking the boxes.

You know, the first time we talked, I got Meredith’s origin story. But we didn’t have time to get to the stuff about the way she’d learned to help people. And her story was tougher than I’d anticipated. A little less… uplifting.

We talked again, and it was actually kind of an emotional conversation.

Since the first time we talked, she had been doing some calculations about her current job: how much of her total compensation goes health care.

And it’s more than half. When you counted the money that her employer puts in toward a health insurance premium, the part that she pays, the deductible, all the co-pays— almost sixty percent of the money that her employer slated as money for Meredith’s position was going toward health care.

And she was not happy about it.

I told her I’d been thinking about our first conversation — her ninja training. How tough it was— not something anybody would sign up for. How much ongoing work it was. How I was starting to think about the story.

DAN: here’s how I’m currently pitching. It is like my neighbor, the health care money Ninja, uh, you know, has like good news and bad news for you. And the good is that like it can be done and the bad news is it is a real fucking drag. And not everybody has it in them.

MEREDITH Yeah. They don’t. Yeah, no, he definitely does. Everyone does not have it in them.

DAN: Have you known people who didn’t?

MEREDITH: Yeah.

DAN: Would you tell me one of those stories?

Meredith: No. I mean, you know, like once you’re a diabetic and you’ve grown up with enough diabetics, they do start to die.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So

It’s not just money. Type 1 diabetes is a life-threatening illness. It requires constant vigilance. Everybody’s body responds differently, no matter how vigilant they are, and people die young.

Meredith had brought over a book of cartoons about her experience with her health. They were great. Funny, and super, super-sad.

MEREDITH: No, this one actually was remade and it’s like reappeared across the Internet. Someone had read it and it was really sweet. Yeah. But this is the original

DAN: No reason to cry over spilled milk. Broken insulin, that is worth bawling over.

MEREDITH: Oh, you have to take shots. He must have the bad diabetes.

DAN: Yes, they were all out of the good kind…

Later, Meredith wrote to me, and she was like, hey, that WAS pretty heavy. She wrote about how being an artist had saved her: “I think I downplayed … the experience of being joyful through t he marathon.”

And she said she’d pulled up some examples of where she’d helped folks. Like the text string with Kelley, the woman whose daughter Meredith hooked up with free camp.

So we got together again, at her kitchen table. She showed me the text string with Kelley, talked about how she’ll help other people dig up the financial aid form on their hospital’s web site.

She’s seen how hard other hospitals make it— by digging for other people.

Meredith: They don’t even know where to go. And you’re like, well, okay, what state, what city do you live in?

She gets the hospital’s name…

Meredith: And then you just start going into their eligibility section for financial aid, popping in all those keywords

DAN: And you would just…

MEREDITH: I do this for fun! Like this is my, I know it’s hard for me to go out and, um, do a lot of activities. And so like this was just one of the things when I was like sicker that I was just like, Oh, alright, I got this. And yeah, this is just my,

DAN: You would just like hang out in Facebook groups and look for somebody who needed help and like

MEREDITH: Facebook or Reddit — or people just ask. there’s a whole Reddit page just dedicated to hospital bills

DAN: and you would hang out on that page and be there to answer people’s questions.

MEREDITH: Yeah! Because there’s so many of them!

She shares her Reddit name with me— it’s top-secret because she likes to be anonymous there— and she is not kidding around. Here’s some excerpts:

“Look for the words financial aid, charity care— anything along the lines of words that can hide money.”

“…ask your doctor. Tell them, “look, I’m tight on funds right now. It would make a big difference in my life if you lower what I owe to $100 (or whatever seems fair)

Technical advice about fighting a vague, super-high Emergency Room bill. Ends with “good luck, stay cool and keep fighting!”

Another one includes: “Be polite and start climbing the billing-info ladder…”

Another one ends: “… and just keep asking. You are negotiating for your life, be polite ALWAYS, maybe cry a little, but keep asking”

On and on. It’s awesome. And kind of exhausting to contemplate.

Later, in our last conversation, Meredith says she’s been thinking, that she does this partly to overcome her own sense of exhaustion. Of being overwhelmed herself by all these issues.

MEREDITH: I really don’t think I’m necessarily going to be able to solve them for myself …But if you can solve them for someone else, it’s like, well, I did that for that person. I am sure I can turn that skill over and do it for myself.

Even ninjas worry. [Exhale]

And then— I’ve gotten to see the thrill of this stuff too, because of this thing that happened recently. And Meredith played a role.

So, last summer, I got this medical device called a CPAP machine — it’s for people whose airway closes up in their sleep, which is pretty unhealthy.

And it was funny, because I was doing a story at the time about how these devices SPY on you— for your insurance company. (You might remember it from last season. It was a pretty fun story.)

And the machine was AMAZING for me. I mean, sleep apnea makes you tired, so I was surprised when a test said I had it. I took the test because my snoring drove my wife crazy. I didn’t think I felt tired.

It turns out, I just hadn’t known what not-tired felt like. This was like discovering coffee for the first time.

But then this thing happened: I went on a trip, brought the machine with me— and left it on public transit on the way to the airport. OH MAN. Called lost and found for a week, nothing.

And I knew, from the story: The machine spies on you so your insurance company knows if you’re using it. If you’re not, they won’t pay for it. In the first few months you have it, they don’t buy it — they just make little rental payments to the vendor. If you don’t use it, the vendor takes it back.

But I couldn’t give it back. I didn’t HAVE it. AARGH.

And meanwhile, I was going to be SUPER-tired, and I wasn’t going back to that.

My wife Devorah posted to a neighborhood Facebook group and asked if anybody had a spare.

Guess who wrote back? Meredith!

This was before I scheduled interviews with her. I WISH I’d recorded that lightning visit.

Anyway, I got the medical-device people on the phone. They were like, “Your insurance might pay for a new one. But first we need to get paid for the one that’s lost.”

Paid by me. And then, if the insurance DIDN’T pay for a new one, I’d be on the hook for the second one. In both cases, paying the price they get from insurance— which is WAY higher than what you can get online.

And the whole thing was going to take weeks.

UGH. We bought a gently-used one from some website— I gave Meredith her dad’s back when I interviewed her the first time— and waited for the bill to come.

Last week it came. More than a grand. UGH. I left it on the dining room table.

And then, something pretty awesome happened. I came out from the world headquarters here on our sun porch, and my wife Devorah was in the living room. And she had just called the equipment place and gotten us a HUGE break.

DW: Wait, what did you just say?

DH I think I’m fucking amazing

DW You are so you just, you just, you just, you just saved us. What, like $800?

DH: Well, I just called them and I said, you know, we had to buy a new one. And I’m wondering if you could meet us in between your cost and the what you’re billing us for because

DW: What a nice way to put it

DEVO: I know 1,059 probably isn’t your cost. So I basically just appealed to her sympathies. I was thinking she’d knock off like a hundred, maybe 200 bucks, just cause I was so nice and I wasn’t even sure. She said she had to check with him or she actually called me back. She checked and she called back and she said, can you pay, you know, $310? And I, I said, yeah, yes we can.

DW: You’re amazing. I love you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

DH: I just had a feeling that if they asked, they would, they would help us a little bit.

DW: Oh my God. That was so nice. Oh man. Wow. We thank you so much.

DH I’m relieved.

DW I’ve been dreading getting this bill.

DH I know. I’ve been dreading getting this bill too. And then I saw it and I was like, Oh no.

DW: I’ve been dreading how you would feel and what you might say when you saw it.

DH: What I saw was I’ve been listening to this show and I think I have an idea. You’re amazing. Always worth a try.

DW: Yes! Holy mackerel. That is the, that’s amazing. That’s amazing.

DH: See, I just like, I’m just making money left and right. It’s not Sweden, but you know— it’s like a postcard from Sweden,

DW: like a postcard from Sweden. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, so romantic

DH: It kind of is— depends what you’re into.

DW: Yeah. Okay. I’m going to go back and make the show. I love you so much.

Devorah posted her triumph to Facebook, and Meredith wrote a comment: That’s some ninja-level work right there.

By the way, when Devorah mentioned a postcard from Sweden, that’s a kind of family joke— we talked about it in the first episode of this show: If you have the right kind of job, with the right kind of health insurance, it’s like you live in a country with a really good national health service. Like maybe Sweden. (I don’t actually know a lot about Sweden.)

(If you haven’t heard that first episode, you might want to check it out. Actually, if you’re new here, you could go back and listen to all of them. I think they’re all pretty good, and that’s a great place to start.)

Next time, on An Arm and a Leg: If this podcast were a musical, it would be Explanation of Benefits. Which is actually a show in rehearsal right now in New York City. It’s got a smart and FUNNY history of health insurance. Set to music!

And this:

HECK NO TECHNO SINGS: Bills, Bills, Bills…

That’s next time on An Arm and a Leg.

Till then, take care of yourself.

This episode was produced by me, Dan Weissmann. Our editor is Ann Heppermann, our consulting managing producer is Daisy Rosario. Our music is by Dave Winer and Blue Dot Sessions. Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard.

This season of An Arm and a Leg is a co-production with Kaiser Health News— a non-profit news service about health care in America that’s an editorially-independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Kaiser Health News is NOT affiliated with Kaiser Permanente, the big health care provider— they share an ancestor, and that’s all. This guy Henry J. Kaiser was what people used to call an Industrialist. He built ships, made steel, smelted aluminum, poured a LOT of concrete. He was like a mid-twentieth century Elon Musk.

Henry Kaiser died more than 50 years ago. The health care provider and the newsroom named after him are offshoots of totally different little projects he created on the side.

It’s a fun story— you can check it out at arm and a leg show dot com, slash Kaiser

Diane Webber is National Editor for Broadcast and Taunya English is Senior Editor for Broadcast Innovation at Kaiser Health News— they are editorial liaisons to this show.

Finally, thank you to some of our new backers on Patreon— I literally could not make this show without you. Pledge two bucks a month or more, and you get a shout-out right here. Thanks this week to:

Sal Kravik, Brandon Bergeron,

Zoe Weinstein, Harry Pottash, Peter Wronski, Megan A Webb,

Eddy Torres, Bill Canter, Amy Seirer, Sarah M.

Emmy Bean, Stacey Ebel, Magdalena Plewinska, and Joan Allen

Thank you so much! Seeing you come in and support this show makes me feel SO good. It’s like

DW: Yes! Holy mackerel. That is the, that’s amazing. That’s amazing.