How Katelyn survived COVID — without going bankrupt. (Not easy. She has tips.)

Dan: I got a message on the arm and a leg hotline right after we started this season, season 19, named for COVID-19. The message came from a woman in Florida who said she was COVID positive, and it sounded like she was in trouble.

She had passed the worst without checking into a hospital, but it was scary.

Katelyn: I was able to, I’m so sorry. I was able to kind of battle it through at home on my own, but at one point I was afraid I was going to die in bed alone in my apartment because I live on my own. And because of quarantine, no one was allowed to come over and take care of me.

I was, I was afraid I was going to die, and that I wouldn’t have the energy to call 9 1 1 if it got that bad.

Dan: Even now that the worst was over physically, she had another problem on her hands. Being sick meant missing weeks of work and pay.

Katelyn: So as of right now, I’m in a financial bind and I’m stuck. My landlord is kind of beaten down my door every day trying to get me to pay rent, and my short-term disability isn’t going to be approved until I can go see a physician in person, which I can’t do because of quarantine.

And on top of all of that, I just got a phone call. From a hospital that I stayed in over a year ago. It was last January, and they’re not covering any of it, so I owe over $2,000 for that that they told me about now, and they’re making daily collections calls, even though I told them about my financial situation.

I hope my short term disability gets approved, but if it doesn’t, I don’t know what I’m going to do.

Dan: And honestly, I didn’t know what to do. Like I didn’t know what resources I could point Katelyn to.

1. A few weeks later, I found a couple things I thought might help, and I sent her a message, and then last week Katelyn texted me back her message, said, hi, Dan.

Katelyn: Hi Dan. Thank you for getting back to me. I’ve been recovering slowly and it looks like I’ve got a long run of respiratory issues for the foreseeable future, but I’m okay.

Dan: In her text, she said she had managed to get the disability insurance company to pay up,

Katelyn: which required like daily multi-hour phone calls with me coughing and choking. But I did it.

Dan: I was like, that sounds like an interesting story. And then there was more

Katelyn: also, have you considered talking about the other financial ramifications of COVID?

1. I only mentioned this because I work for the collections department of a major financial institution, and pretty much my whole job right now is figuring out how to delay people’s bills. Lots of people don’t even know how to ask for this stuff, or they ignore it because it’s scary. But there are programs at pretty much everywhere.

They can bill you for anything like your bank, your power company, all of it.

Dan: She. I used these programs while I was sick to keep my lights on. I texted back right away. I am so glad you are. Okay. Would you be game to talk with me about how you made it through? And I think people will be very interested to hear about those programs.

She replied right away. Yeah, absolutely. I would love to help to allow her to talk freely about her work. We’re just gonna use her first name. It’s Katelyn, and we’re not gonna name her employer or the company that runs that short term disability program, but Katelyn has sent me documents that back up the key points of her story.

She’s for real, and her story is real and really instructive, and so is her advice as someone who takes calls all day from folks who can’t pay their bills. You may wanna forward this one around. Meanwhile strapped in. This is an arm and a leg, a show about the cost of healthcare and Dan Weiss,

and I was super happy to get Katelyn on the phone. I’m so glad you’re

Katelyn: okay. Yeah. Um, I wasn’t for a while and I’m still not a hundred percent. I actually just got back from the grocery store and the walk between my car and the front door of the grocery store. I had to go inside and sit down on a bench for a while, but like, I’m okay.

I’m going to be fine.

Dan: Katelyn had started feeling bad in the middle of March.

Katelyn: For the past week though, girl in the cubicle next to me had been coming to work coughing and sneezing and stuff. I begged her to stay home, but she’s like, no, it’s just allergies. And I’m like, okay, but what if it’s not, but what if it’s not though?

Dan: Then it was Katelyn’s turn. She got a headache. Felt kind of crummy,

Katelyn: but I thought that was my normal level of sick.

Dan: She’s got some underlying medical issues, feeling lousy is pretty normal for her.

Katelyn: And then that 17th I woke up and I felt like I had been hit by a bus.

Dan: She called the local hotline and they were like, come in first thing tomorrow and get tested and don’t go to work.

Katelyn’s job has a special benefit called short term disability. If you can’t work for a while, they cover your salary. So Katelyn calls her employer, they file a claim with the company that provides the benefit, and then the benefit company calls Katelyn

Katelyn: and they’re like, we can’t give you anything until you have a diagnosis.

Dan: Okay? Katelyn’s expecting that any day, except then it takes almost two weeks to get her test results. Katelyn was not alone in waiting. There’s a lot of news stories from this period about how people in Florida were waiting for COVID test results, and while Katelyn’s waiting, she’s on the phone with the benefits company,

Katelyn: they said, we’re not gonna pay you a dime until you give us proof.

Dan: Katelyn gets her results March 30th. She calls up the company and tells ’em,

Katelyn: they’re like, cool. Got it.

Dan: A couple days later she calls again, you guys got my claim? You need anything from me? They’re like, we’re working on it. And a few days later, Katelyn calls me No progress on her claim. Creditors are beating on her door, her landlord, the internet company, this medical bill that suddenly popped up from the year before.

That’s April 6th. Couple days later, she decides she’s feeling better enough and broke enough to start working again part-time. At first. Then she’s like,

Katelyn: forget it. I’m going back to work full-time. I don’t care how bad I feel. I

Dan: mean, Katelyn has lost more than three weeks of wages, so now she calls the short-term disability folks, tells ’em she’s back at work, her claim period’s over, and she needs them to make up those lost wages like right away so she can pay her bills.

Katelyn: And then they’re like, great, great, great. We’re not paying you anything. What? Yeah. Wait, what? They said you’re, yeah, they said great, great, great. Your claim’s been denied.

Dan: Wait, why? What?

Katelyn: Because I did not get evaluated by a physician who determined I was unfit for work.

Dan: Remember, in her message to me, Katelyn said they wanted her to see a doctor.

In person, which wasn’t happening. She was quarantined, could barely get outta bed. I asked her why they wouldn’t just let her do a telehealth visit. She says it didn’t occur to her and nobody at the insurance company mentioned it as an option. And I’ve asked the company if they directed their staff to suggest this option, and a representative emailed me to say Each instance is unique and we determine what course of action, such as telehealth is appropriate on a case by case basis.

Which I took to mean, no, there wasn’t any company-wide directive to make that kind of suggestion. So here’s Katelyn back at work, still feeling like garbage and the disability payment would be $1,700. She needs it. Her take home pay is like four 50 a week. Her rent is eight 50 a month. It was due on the first and now the month’s half over.

Katelyn: I had no money. I had like $5 in my bank account and I called my dad and I’m like. Can you run me over some milk and bread? And my dad ran me groceries twice and just left them on my doorstep because I couldn’t afford to buy any.

Dan: And she’s got the internet provider and her credit card and everybody else she owes.

Katelyn: I’ve been ill, I’ve been stressed. And then they told me my claim was denied and I just hung up the phone and cried for like an hour because like I didn’t know what to do because if that money wasn’t gonna come in, I was up a creep.

Dan: So Katelyn calls her dad for advice and he has some.

And he says, you have to become their problem.

You have to. You have to make them recognize your phone number and cuss every time they see it. You need to become a Capital P problem.

Dan: Katelyn had a pretty good idea how to do that.

You know, I’ve worked customer service for years and years and years, and I know exactly what one of them Karen’s is like.

That’s like. I would like to speak to your manager because this burger does not have pickles on it. I know exactly who that person is, and I just embodied that person and I, I just annoyed the DAR out of him and I know my case manager really, really well and she hates me. And I stayed on her phone line for hours, for hours, taking up per day being like, no, you gonna run this by me?

One more again. You gonna run this by me one more? Again, exactly why I’m not gonna be able to get my money and I’m at this point. Trying to do a full-time job, barely able to breathe, and I’m having to spend hours of my day on the phone. With these chuckle,

Dan: after a while of this, she turns up the heat. She gets in touch with a family friend who’s a lawyer, gets him on board to write a very stern letter if she needs them to.

She calls up the company, lets them know she’s got a lawyer,

Katelyn: and also we’ll be blasting you on social media and I will be calling the local news.

Dan: Katelyn knew she also had privilege on her side, and in this case, she wasn’t gonna hold back from using it.

I’m just this sweet, young, white lady, you know, I’m so pitiful.

I’m recovering from COVID-19. If I went to the media and said, oh look, they’re denying me my money and I didn’t do anything wrong, you know. I can cry on command. I can make it their problem.

Dan: She says she laid it all out for them, showed ’em all her cards. Now it’s up to them.

And my case manager, who I’ve been talking to for like four or five days says, Uhhuh, would you mind holding?

And she puts me on hold. She goes and talks to somebody and she comes back and says, we’ve made a one time exception for you. Your claim has been approved. Have a nice day. And she hangs up on me.

Dan: Katelyn played hardball. She used everything she had, including any unfair advantages. Everybody’s situation’s different, but I think we can all learn a little something from her story. But Katelyn was not of the woods yet. While she was trying to get one company to pay her, she had everybody else coming after her for money.

Her landlord, her internet provider, her electric company, this weird hospital bill. And this is where she has some really extra insight to share with us. ’cause you might remember. Her job. She’s a bill collector at a big financial institution, so she has some insider information that’s right after this.

This episode of an Arm and a Leg is a co-production with Kaiser Health News. That’s a nonprofit news service covering healthcare in America. Kaiser Health News is not affiliated with the big healthcare outfit, Kaiser Permanente. We’ll have a little more information about Kaiser Health News at the end of this episode.

So here is where Katelyn gives us the scoop on how to negotiate for some breathing room. If COVID-19 has you in a financial emergency. ’cause remember she works on the bill collector side. Now in our last episode, we heard from somebody who works for a health insurance company and she shared some really useful tips on what to do when you’re on the phone with those folks.

And one thing you might remember is even our inside expert there says she has to take deep breaths, use strategies to keep the person on the other side from rushing her off the phone. And sometimes she needs to ask to talk to a supervisor, and that’s because as we discussed, when you’re calling the insurance company, a lot of things are working against you.

You’re pushing uphill when you’re behind on your bills. There’s a difference.

Katelyn: Pretty much any company that bills you regularly has a system for when you can’t pay.

Dan: There’s an exception of course, health insurance companies. Possibly the scariest story we ever did on this show was about a couple whose health insurance cut them off without even telling them their payment hadn’t arrived.

Can you believe it? Everywhere else, it’s different, especially if you call and ask for help at her company right away they’ll be like, what if we extend your payments by month right away? There’s a whole department of people who will go over your budget with you and they’ll offer you a year of lower payments.

Katelyn: My company is not. It’s not some special, super nice thing. It costs us money when people stop paying their bills because if people just can’t pay, they’re just gonna stop paying forever, which costs us, which the money. So every company has that. If you call them and say. My power bill is due on the 15th.

Ain’t gonna happen. Chief, what can we do? They’ll say, okay, can we, would you be able to make it next week? Would you be able to make it the week after that? What can we do? They’ll help you because it is in their interests to do so.

Dan: I mean, look, you’ve still gotta be nice. Sure, they’ve got these helpful programs all set up,

Katelyn: but a lot of it is discretionary.

A lot of it is discretionary, probably more than it should be. And you know, if you call in yelling and hollering and screaming, I’m just gonna hang up on you. I don’t, I, I don’t get paid to listen to that.

Dan: But she does get paid to help you out or really to help the company keep your business.

Katelyn: I want you using our debit card.

I want you using our credit card. I want you to have your new loan through us because. That’s how we make money

Dan: and arrangements get made.

A lot of these people who have these super, super late, super huge balances at my bank are on $10 a month payment plans until they can pay more. But $10 a month is $10 we didn’t have last month, and it keeps them talking to us until that we can figure out something better.

Dan: I mean, it feels scary. It feels awful. It feels shameful to tell a stranger you can’t pay your bills. Uh, I mean, what’s that person gonna think? But Katelyn says, for real.

Katelyn: They’re not thinking poorly of you. They’re thinking, how do we keep this person a customer?

Dan: So that’s the good news. But it’s one thing to know this in your head, it’s another thing to actually pick up the phone, confront all the shame and the fear and the anxiety, and actually make the call.

And Katelyn says, even with everything she knows from her own actual job, it was hard for her to make those calls when she was behind on her bills. You

know, like I felt like a bad adult for not having money. I, you know, I felt. Stupid and, and like I couldn’t manage my own affairs. And, and I was like, it’s not just you, it’s everybody.

Just call. And I did and they were great.

Dan: Well, the property manager with the rent was maybe kind of snippy, but Katelyn did not get evicted. Katelyn recognizes lots of people have it a lot tougher than she did.

Katelyn: I do still have a job and I’m white and I’m educated, and I come from middle class, like I’ve got a lot of things going for me that make people treat me nicely and that make people give me second chances.

So I know that some of the things I’m saying, it may not be so smooth and easy for other people. They may not get the level of slack that I do, but it’s worth a shot,

Dan: I gotta say. I thought all that was really well said, and I asked Katelyn how she came to be able to talk about her privilege. So clearly,

because I’m a queer person, I’ve seen enough to know how garbage it feels.

And I’ve seen what happens to other people

Dan: and she sees that unfair treatment where she works. She sees that some of her colleagues do not treat everybody alike. She hears the way those colleagues talk about and talk to callers they think are black or who might be immigrants. And some of those colleagues, no matter who they’re talking to, just aren’t very nice.

And if you’ve got somebody like that on the other end of the phone, whether they’re a racist or just a jerk, Katelyn has two suggestions. One’s gonna sound familiar. If you heard last week’s episode about talking to insurance, just ask politely if they will transfer you to someone else.

And they’ll do it.

’cause if they’re, if you’re talking to a person who’s that kind of butthole, they don’t wanna talk to you either.

Dan: They want you

Katelyn: off their line, so they’ll give you to someone else.

Dan: And with these kind of calls, Katelyn actually has another suggestion for what to do if the person who takes your call is being a butthole.

And it’s something that might not work as well if you’re calling the insurance company.

Katelyn: So if you’re talking to the jerk that works in my department that I’m not gonna name. Mm-hmm. Hang up and call back and you might get me.

Dan: and yeah, she’ll be able to see that you just cut off a call. But you don’t care.

She’ll just be trying to keep your business with the company. ’cause that’s her actual job. I mean, getting Katelyn or someone like her on the line is not gonna solve all your problems. She actually told me, whatever you get offered, check the fine print, make sure what’s being offered can actually work for you before take the deal.

And Katelyn says, and I a hundred percent agree. For a lot of people, for way too many people, the problems are way bigger than an extension on your cable bill is gonna fix. The rent is too damn high. Uh, and uh, so are medical bills, and that was before the pandemic. I’m not even gonna cite the unemployment numbers.

I will mention a study last week showed that 27 million people have lost their employer health insurance. I mean, a lot of us are in a lot of trouble, and I still say this stuff is worth knowing and kind of fascinating and worth repeating. If you owe somebody money, they’ve literally got an investment in you.

They want some kind of arrangement that’s gonna keep that relationship going. And all the feelings about calling up and asking for some other arrangement, they aren’t normal. Katelyn had to majorly psych herself up to make those calls so. We are in some garbage times right now. Take any help you can get on the best terms you can get for a shot at getting through them.

’cause we got a lot of work to do together. And in case this is relevant to anybody listening, remember Katelyn got back in touch with me after I tried sending her some resources that I thought could help her, and one was a collection of advice about dealing with medical debt. That’s on our website.

There’ll be a link with this episode. The other was a site called hello landlord.org. It’s a free tool that generates letters you can send to your landlord, asserting your legal rights, including in a lot of cases, provisions in the federal stimulus laws passed in March, mean they can’t evict you Just now.

We will have links to all of that wherever you’re listening to this podcast. So if there’s anybody you think could use some of this kind of advice, some of this kind of help, send this to them. Thank you. Next week we’re gonna wrap up Season 19. COVID is the new normal. Gonna be for a while. The old normal was trash, and as we’ve been learning, the pandemic is only making all the old problems clearer and it’s making them worse.

Before the coronavirus hit, the plan for this show was to start building a kind of ongoing project of learning the art of self-defense against the cost of healthcare. In our last season, we profiled somebody. I called a medical bill Ninja, and when the season ended I was like, yeah, I think we should build a dojo.

And I think that sounds like a better idea now than ever. So we’re gonna take a little bit of time to start building that up, and then we will come back and start learning to kick ass for the long haul together. More about those plans next week we’ll also be checking in with a few people who have had a special view of what COVID-19 is costing us, what they’ve learned and what they’ll be looking for in the months ahead.

Till then, take care of yourself. If you’ve got stories or questions about the cost of healthcare, why not follow Katelyn’s lead and give us a call? The hotline is open, 7 2 4 2 7 6 6 5 3 4. That is 7 2 4 Arm N Leg. This episode was produced by me, Dan Weissman, edited by Anne Heman and Derek John. Daisy Rosario is our consulting managing producer, and Adam Raimundo is our audio wizard.

Our music is by Dave Weiner and Blue dot sessions. This season of an Arm and a Leg is a co-production with Kaiser Health News. That’s a nonprofit news service about healthcare in America. That’s an editorially independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation. Kaiser Health News is not affiliated with Kaiser Permanente in the big healthcare outfit.

They share an ancestor. This guy Henry j Kaiser, he had his hands in a lot of different stuff. Concrete. Aluminum shipbuilding. When he died more than 50 years ago, he left half his money to the foundation that later created Kaiser Health News. You can learn more about him and Kaiser Health News at Arm and a Leg show.com/kaiser.

Diane Weber is National Editor for broadcast, and Tony English is Senior Editor for Broadcast Innovation at Kaiser Health News. They’re editorial liaisons to this show. Finally, thank you to some of our new backers on Patreon pledge. Two bucks a month or more, you get a shout out. Right here. It is a pleasure and an honor, and a lot of hard work to make this show.

This is the best part. I cannot tell you how much it means to me that you make this possible. So thanks this week to folks who joined us for the first time and some who increased their pledge. Thank you so much to Betty Rogen, camp Mary Ann Moss. Stephanie Koch. Padma Athena, Philippe Ono, Alec Ti I. Ned Daniel Reno, David n Colin McDougall, Sandra Mayor, Camille Carter and Peter Quirk.

Thank you so much.